We have received from a site visitor comments on our article Was Mary Raped?. These comments had lead to a dialogue with such deep questions, like: "Why no new revelations in 2000 years?".
The original communications is as follows:
Your article on Mary having been a rape victim is on track, but not on point.
Mary was only 11 years old when Joseph came to her mother and asked for her hand in marriage. He offered money (or goats).
Anne agreed but Mary did not want this. We are dealing, though, with Arabs, and the girl was more property than anything else. Forced marriages occur today in similar countries.
Joseph, being in his forties, unshaved and unbathed, forced himself on Mary repeatedly and she went catatonic.
Others though this was barbaric and Joseph was shunned. With Mary eight months pregnant, he fled the town with his young wife.
The shock of delivery brought Mary out of her catatonic state, but the only way she could live with herself was to believe that her baby was the son of God.
Her mother, who had joined them afterwards re-enforced his believe in order to keep Mary from going back into shock.
But Mary was never quite the same. Jesus grew up telling everyone that he was the son of God. He got beat up a lot by other kids. Sometimes adults would play cruel tricks on him.
He learned magicians tricks to protect himself and make others believe what he himself believed.
But he didn't like God as he was portrayed in the Old Testament (that is a retronym, by the way, as before there was a New Testament, it was just called the Bible), so he rewrote God as it were.
Having been bullied, he told others, not to get an eye for an eye, but to seek forgiveness. His tricks became better and he used shills.
He had a somewhat bizarre relationship with his mother, almost bordering on an Oedipus complex (and the fact that he never had a relationship with any woman seems to attest to this), which is why he continued to preach rather than settling down.
But he was very convincing, even in a world without social media, and went farther than he should and tread on the sacred ground of the Romans, which proved his undoing.
Other nut cases in the Bible.
Abraham: schizophrenic; believed that God told him to kills his son.
Job: shit happens, guy, but you can't blame everything on God.
Bernadette: schizophrenic: believed she saw the Virgin Mary.
Joan of Arc: schizophrenic: heard voices in her head that she believed came from God.
Joseph Smith: schizophrenic: saw visions and heard voices, which came to him as the angel, Moroni.
Witches in Salem England and in the U.S.: wrong time and place to be schizophrenic.
Our answer to the above comment has lead to a dialogue, as follows:
|No.||Our Response||Site Visitor Response||Our Response|
Thank you for your informative message.
It does inform, but not on the subject you are writing about, but on your understanding of the subject and your general education and level of development.
You have learned many English words, and how to make sentences out of them, but your level of thinking and understanding of the reality behind the words is "school bog graffiti" level.
Joseph was not an Arab. Like Jesus and Mary, he was a Jew. So, why did you turn him into an Arab? A product of the War-on-Terror propaganda - vilifying Arabs to justify the US and European crimes of wars against Arab countries?
Back then, Arab or Jew, they were all unwashed, bearded, sandaled, etc.
Is there a real difference today between the Arabs and the Israelis?
Whenever I have met any, they are equally obnoxious.
Yes, it was common in those days for men to have beards, but this was not limited to "those days", or to "Jews and Arabs". Do you think that in "those days" (times of Jesus) all the Europeans were "cleanly shaved"? And some have beards even today.
In hot climates, and even in Europe on warm summer days, wearing sandals, rather than shoes, is more beneficial for the feet - they can breath. In shoes feet sweat, stink, and are likely to develop some kind of fungus infection. Chiropodists recommend wearing sandals whenever possible. So, again sandals are not limited to "Jews and Arabs", nor to "those times".
But as far as "Jews and Arabs" being "unwashed" (as compared to Europeans?), you obviously have not made enough research on that subject.
Most Arabs are Muslims. And Muslims follow the Qur'an. And the Qur'an prescribes 5 obligatory daily prayers, and before each of these prayers it prescribes washing face, hands and feet. And it also prescribes washing with clean water after every time one defecates, urinates, or emits any other body substances. And in some cases it is required to have full body wash (shower).
So, most Arabs wash their faces, hands and feet at least 5 times a day, and usually more than that.
Also in hot climates due to the heat and sweating it is common to have full shower 4 times a day - every time one gets up from sleep and before going to bed. It is common to sleep about an hour in the middle of the day due to the heat.
How often do you wash your face, hands and feet, and have shower? More frequently than the Arabs?
And how often did the Europeans wash in 2000 BC?
As far as "Jews and Arabs" being "obnoxious" - there are "obnoxious" people among all population groups. And of course it depends on what you mean by "obnoxious".
Other "nut cases in the Bible", as you call them: Bernadette, Joan of Arc, Joseph Smith, are NOT in the Bible. None of them existed when any of the books of the Bible were written - they were born many centuries later.
Isn't it odd that no new books have been added in nearly 2000 years?
There WAS a new book.
You are not alone to understand that Jesus was a man, not God, or Son of God. Nor that God (whatever created everything that exists) cannot be the property of just one selected group of people. And this did lead to appearance of a book challenging and correcting these logical flaws of the Jews and Christians.
The title of this book is the Qur'an.
The Qur'an did not establish a new religion, but clarified and expanded the teachings of the previous prophets, and corrected the popular errors in the understanding of their teachings.
The Qur'an asserted that no man can be a son of the Creator of the Universe, nor can any group of people own God, but God is the Creator of the Universe and everything belongs to him.
This book was a further big step in raising of the Human Race above their primitive base instincts through Morality and Rule of Law. And it did call upon the Christians to abandon, for their own good, their Trinitarian Doctrine and deification of Jesus, and to accept that he and his mother were ordinary humans, eating human food.
It did accept that Jesus was a prophet, like Moses or Muhammad.
And, yes the Qur'an had taught the Arab pagans to wash themselves at least 5 times a day, among many other laws and moral precepts.
You version of the "birth of Jesus" is your own invention, and does betray your "school bog graffiti" level of thinking. But according to Mathew 1:18, "before they [Joseph and Mary] came together, she [Mary] was found with the child of the Holy Ghost" - that is, Mary was already pregnant before she was even betrothed (engaged) to Joseph.
The New Testament was written down long after Jesus (who was never called Jesus in his lifetime) died.
What you call "the Bible" (which means "the book" in Greek), is a collection of many texts, written by different people at different times, often centuries apart. And often recorded from orally transmitted traditions, transmitted through a few generations.
The word "Jesus" happens to be an Anglicization of the Latin word "Jesus" (pronounced "yes-oos"), which is the Latin version of the Hebrew name "yeshu" (p. yesh-oo), which WAS his name. There is nothing superstitious about it. But it does not matter.
It does not even matter whether he existed at all, or whether it was all "invented by somebody".
According to you "But he [Jesus] didn't like God as he was portrayed in the Old Testament". There is no portrait (or description) of God in any of the books of the "Old Testament".
For Jews, God has no image - the "Old Testament" is a translation from Hebrew of books of Jewish laws and history. Any paintings of God by Christians relate to much later times.
And in Jesus's times even the "Old Testament" did not exist as a single bound book. And the different books that much later were put together into a single book "Old Testament", were hand-written scrolls. The main ones being the Torah (the books of Moses - the first 5 books of the "Old Testament") - books of law and history.
Who's to say that Moses (or anyone after him) didn't make it all up?
Make it "ALL" up?
None of the books of the Bible were written by Moses. Some of them (the first five) were written about Moses, after his death, and possibly very long after his death.
What, according to these books, Moses wrote (etched on 2 stone slabs), were just a few sentences, like "Do not steal". "Do not kill", "A man shall not lay with a man", etc (See the Bible for details).
Did he "make it all up"?
Or did somebody just invent the whole story of Moses, to make fools of us all?
Could not we all just have a good time stealing, killing, and having orgies (gay, straight and bi) as it is becoming increasingly fashionable now? Just think how much fun was Mankind deprived of by following those "invented" laws?
But, invented (or 'revealed' as people who believe in God would call it), the Laws of Moses happen to be the most basic laws necessary for successful functioning of a Human Group. And this is why they were adopted first by the pagan Greek and Roman Emperors, and then by the pagan Monarchs of Europe.
The "immaculate birth", the "miracles", the "cross" did capture the popular imagination, and the prayers and liturgies were the means of educating the people, but the real "payload" was the LAWS and MORALITY which were superior to the pagan laws and morals which they replaced. And it is this "payload" of laws and morality that really mattered, not whether you call appearance of ideas in a human mind - "invention" or "revelation".
Your understanding of "schizophrenia" is also at "school bog graffiti" level.
As people of those times believed in their own behavior being controlled by God, or Devil, when they did something bad, they would say "the Devil told me to do it", and, if they did something good, they would say, "God guided me". This was due to the way they understood life, not to "schizophrenia".
But, now to the "point".
You read our article about Mary and say that it was not "on point".
Our point, or rather points, which you totally missed, were:
And this "school bog graffiti" level of thinking has now moved from school lavatories to the Houses of Parliament. Have you seen that news item about a British MP delivering a speech in the House of Commons for no better reason that to use a few "bad" words for a "dare"?
Jesus was NOT the offspring of some supernatural being.
Only Christians believed that Jesus was an "offspring of God", and it is this belief that has led them to the kind of "Atheism" as is exemplified by your views.
If Mary had been made to conceive without sperm, the child would have been female, as she only had XX chromosomes, but they didn't know about that back then.
There are many legends of virgin births throughout history. With our population in the billions, it hasn't happened once.
It is simply not known how and why Mary conceived. And the point of our article was that we shall never know and IT DOES NOT MATTER.
Even the OT stories about God the destroyer only saving the Jews... Aren't all humans His children?
And what happened to the Canaanites when the former slaves crossed into Canaan. They obviously slaughtered them. Were they bothering anyone? Were they harming anyone?
In those days people lived in groups - tribes or nations (groups of tribes). And they used to fight each other and have their own Gods and religions.
And even today they still fight each other, and have their own national religions.
Some of these religions are godless, but are based on "blind belief", like the American Century, British Values, Democracy, Sexual Orientation, etc.
And where did all the gold come from to make the golden calf? Where did slaves get all the gold?
It is said, that to make the golden calf they used their personal jewelry, which they collected and thrown in to the fire to make the calf.
But, all these details, cannot be proved, but, can only be believed, or speculated upon. And, just like the circumstances of the Birth of Jesus, they are irrelevant.
But all these "stories", invented or true, do contain information valuable for understanding of human behaviour - and this is the real POINT of it all.
No one mentions the fact that Jesus was obviously gay. I mean, I don't care, but he never married and there is no mention of him being around anyone but men.
In "those days", and even in Europe up to the 20th century, contacts between men and women were limited to the family unit. Outside of the family, men kept the company of men, women of women. The kind of social mixing between men and women that you see today in Europe and the USA did not become common till after World War 2.
So, just because a man was not married, and was in the company of men, did not mean that he indulged in homosexual practices. The very use of the word "gay" to mean "homosexual" (a person engaging in acts of mutual masturbation with persons of the same gender) is the result of the increasing cultural and political domination of the "western" society by homosexual pressure groups.
We have made December 25, a pagan holiday, his birthday when it wasn't. And he was born several years prior to AD 1.
Supposedly he ascended to Heaven after he died. Was that his whole body or just his spirit? And why didn't he do it from the cross? It would have been a whole lot better to show it in public and not just be the word of his PR team. And it most certainly would have shown people if he had burst from the cross and hovered like Superman.
But he was just a man, just like Elmer Gantry, who was in the right place and the right time for a lot of people with little hope to believe in his fiction.
If we add in World War II with its 38 million casualties, the Insurrection and the Crusades, the Holy War and all the rest, Christianity has caused more deaths than it has saved, not to mention all the children harmed by Catholic priests.
And where is God in all of this? On vacation somewhere I suppose?
Where is the risen Jesus? With Him, I guess.
There are many flaws in Christian "theology", and these flaws are the main reason why Christianity has been abandoned by the Europeans, in favor of what?
Pederastocracy (Greek for "gay power")?
Yes, Christian Theology, is fundamentally flawed (wrong). And, yes, many atrocities had been committed by Christians in the name of Christianity, just as today atrocities are being committed in the name of "Freedom and Democracy". But is this the POINT?
You asked: "Why no new book in 2000 years?". There was one some 1400 years ago (See: Item 2, above).
But, you can say: "If not 2000 years, then why there is no new book in over 1400 years?"
Today there are millions of books on a multitude of subjects, many of them are useful, and many more useless, but the laws and morality of the Bible and the Qur'an still remain valid in their essence.
This is because they deal with the most basic needs of human society - replacement of arbitrary violence with Rule of Law, enforcement of honest dealings among humans, establishing and maintaining the institution of marriage, replacement of idolatry with acceptance that Man is just another creature of the Universe and that to live successfully Man needs to live in accordance with the laws of the Creator (Laws of Nature).
And, yes, washing - the basics of hygiene.
There have been published many books explaining the various aspects of the Bible and the Qur'an, and many seeking to refute or discredit these books, but no book has succeeded to overturn or replace the essence of their teachings.
And this is because the principles of "Do not kill", "Do not steal", "Deal honestly with people", "A man shall not lay with a man", "Do not worship idols of any kind", ... are just as valid today, as they were 3000 years ago, 2000 years ago and 1400 years ago, and they will remain valid as long as Mankind continues to exist.
These basic truths, however, had to be explained and made acceptable to people, who found them difficult to understand, and were unwilling to accept them, and this could not be done except by presenting them in ways that would fit within the thinking, images and vocabulary of the time and place. And this explains why some of the images which were acceptable to the people of those times, do not fit in with the view of the universe prevalent today. But the essence remains as true today as it had ever been.
You do not need to believe in miracles to understand that killing, stealing, or indulging in sexual perversions is bad. But many people cannot accept these obvious truths without being shown a miracle, or being threatened with Hell.
You do not need to see God to understand that something had created the Universe, but people have difficulty with abstract logical reasoning, so they were asking Moses to show them God before they accept the Laws.
The same with Jesus, people wanted to see "miracles", before they could accept his teachings.
And the same with Muhammad, people asked him to fly into the sky and bring to them from there a book in the company of angels, so that they would accept his laws. In those days the existence of angels was taken for granted.
And now that most people no longer believe in angels, Hell and Paradise, they go back to killing, steeling, and sexual perversions.
The key to understanding religion is not in miracles or "the supernatural", but in Human Nature, and the Human need for Law and Morality.
I don't know what "school bog graffiti" is, but if you're looking for immortality by making Jesus your personal savior, rots a ruck.
You do not know what "school bog graffiti" is?
Children learn words, and sometimes they scribble words on walls of school toilet's cubicles, or on walls and pavements in public places. Such scribblings are called "graffiti". And when they engage in such scribbling they think they are doing something good. And these graffiti express the level of their intellectual development.
We used the phrase "school bog graffiti" to describe the low level of intellectual development prevalent today among the "western intellectual elite" - academics, journalists, politicians. Some of your views do fall under this description, like your view of "Jews and Arabs", your use of the word "gay", to describe, the common low-level sexual perversion of homosexuality, your fantasies about the birth of Jesus.
Are we "looking for immortality by making Jesus our personal savior", as you say?
What had given you the idea that we do?
It might help you to re-read our articles and our responses to your comments with a little more thought, and more open mind, to answer that question.
Here we see an example of a modern post-Christian European.
To better understand his "predicament" see: Religion and Modern Secularism.